UPDATE 2: At my girlfriend's suggestion, comments are re-opened. Try to say something new.
UPDATE: Comments are now closed.
Last week I went to a reading at the Village Voice Bookshop -- Christopher Hitchens still pimping his book, "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything."
Hitchens was more good humored than I expected, and what a great speaker -- interjecting bits from history, philosophy and literature to back up his points, with an anecdote here and there to leaven the dose, and all developed with such clarity and complexity you had to agree with absolutely everything he said. Except when he was completely deluded. (The Taliban crushed in Afghanistan? Maybe for ten minutes.) But even that was somehow okay. Even his defense of Bush's invasion of Iraq became palatable, because he didn't justify it as a hawk or an oil fiend, but because he believes in democracy the way only an atheist can.
"God Is Not Great," a thoughtful attack on religion, seems especially timely at a moment when religion is attacking us, the pope reinforcing anti-Semitism with his open-armed welcome to Holocaust negationists, Jews against Muslims, Muslims against Jews, against Hindus. And of course, every fundamentalist everything against women and queers.
Hitchens observations and assertions:
• We will live to regret the conversion of Russia into a heavily-armed, self-pitying, chauvinistic theocracy.
• Appearing as one of the Russian Orthodox Church's new icons: Joseph Stalin.
• The Israel-Palestine struggle is largely a land distribution issue. The problem being that on both sides the veto is held by "the Party of God."
• By August Iran will announce it has nuclear capabilities, but will most likely direct them against its Sunni neighbors.
• Religions poisons everything. Yes everything. Because it's a fundamental attack on the individual. That we can't know right from wrong without it. It makes us slaves. And is the origin of totalitarianism with the all powerful father that can convict us of thought crimes.
• The Christian heaven is all about praising and thanking.
• North Korea is the embodiment of the Christian heaven, where there is no irony, art, privacy, no respect for individuals, and one is forced to offer perpetual thanks.
• Religion is a part of us, proof of our badly done evolution from primates. That and the genitals. Seriously. Have you looked at them lately? Not exactly intelligent design.
Posts
52 comments:
Muslims-against-everybody would be more accurate.
Sean from Austin, USA
Actually, fundamentalist Muslims often make alliances with the Vatican and fundamentalist Christians, especially when it comes to thwarting UN resolutions supporting women or lgbt people.
Better than you thought? Have you been living under a rock. Hitch is one of the 5 most intelligent individuals in the world. I suggest going on youtube and watching some of his debates. I had the honor of seeing him live in NYC debating Shmuley Boteach. Hitch wiped the floor with his arguments. I agree with your above comment though, although Islam at it's most basic is a threat to civilized society. I feel the same way about all other religions, but they don't want want me dead for being an Non-Believer.
Yeah, North Korea is like Heaven because I always confuse Jesus and Kim Jong-Il. How obtuse.
I see the parallels with North Korea and pretty much any monotheism. A totalitarian ideology (totalitarian in the sense every facet of individual existence is "guided" by a "higher power" than yourself) is embodied around a couple of martyr-esque characters.
Kim Jong-il is treated as a demi-god by the State. His portrait is everywhere, his name is on everyone's lips. It is assumed he is beyond mortal error, to question either his pseudo-divinity or righteousness in doing whatever he wants is blasphemous.
Tales of supernatural goings-on abound. From the State's account of his birth (replete with star appearing in the sky as an "omen" and locally famous icebergs in mountain lakes splitting with a harmonic chime) to the legendary accounts of - of all things - playing golf (got bored with the game after five straight holes-in-one, first time he ever played).
All the same props and kitsch are practiced by the monotheisms in some form or another, and they all surround the supposed exploits of pseudo-divine people. Conveniently for the monotheisms however, all the human icons for veneration are conveniently dead. But I definitely see the parallels.
Actually Christian heaven looks very much like 1950s USA. Still a few kinks o be ironed out but freedom and tolerance. About that time J Stalin was presiding over athiest heaven.
Of course, he is right and, I think, incredibly brave.
15,000 years of successful herd behaviour shaping the surviving gene pool is dangerous to argue against. It might have forged early civilisation, but it will surely destroy us in the end.
Very sad.
Actually, fundamentalist Muslims often make alliances with the Vatican and fundamentalist Christians, especially when it comes to thwarting UN resolutions supporting women or lgbt people.
LOL at this tortured assocation- It is the Queer/Politically Correct/Totalitarian Left which finds itself firmly on the side of Jihadists in San Francisco:
It all started at an anti-terrorism rally hosted on campus by San Francisco State University (SFSU) College Republicans last October. During the rally, College Republicans stomped on makeshift Hezbollah and Hamas flags, which, unbeknownst to them, bore the word "Allah" in Arabic script. In response to complaints filed by Muslim and non-Muslim students, the Associated Students Inc. (ASI) unanimously passed a resolution condemning College Republicans for "hateful religious intolerance" and for the "[pre-meditated stomping] of the flags knowing it would offend some people and possibly incite violence." SFSU is currently investigating College Republicans, and if found guilty of violating university conduct rules, College Republicans could lose official student group status and/or funding from the ASI.
http://media.www.muhlenbergweekly.com/media/storage/paper300/news/2007/02/15/Oped/With-Liberty.And.Justice.For.Some-2723308.shtml
So let's see. Joseph Stalin was an atheist. Adolf Hitler believed in some weird view of ancient Norse myths. Can you think of an atheistic government (like communist China, North Vietnam, NOrth Korea, and the Soviet Union) which did not kill millions of innocent people?
this is the second and last time i will send you this comment.
.
.
C Hitchens is a national treasure.
If it were possible, the i.q.‘s of millions of people
would increase automatically and substantially
if they would just convert with his logic…..lol
Check out the many youtube debate videos
of this man and watch him go.
And don’t worry , it’s impossible to overdose
if you watch him for too many hours at a time,
you may end up a little hazy, but it goes away….………lol
"Stalin was an atheist.'
Stalin was educated in a religious seminary.
Hitler was a Catholic, and firmly and consistently supported by the Vatican.
What part of "religion is just fuckin' stupid" do you not get, Anonymass?
Neither most religious fundamentalists nor most devout atheists seem to be concerned with what the truth is...just whatever makes them feel better. It's hard to imagine that many of these atheists actually believe that every single occurrence that brought us to where we are today is due to random chance. History has shown us that some of the worse regimes in history have been atheistic. In other words, it's not religion that corrupts man, it's human nature that corrupts religion. I don't think Jesus ever preached anything that could lead people to believe that Jews should be blamed for his death, or anything else that led to the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition or the forcing of Christianity on Native populations in the Americas. It's human nature that causes people to act in this way. Survival of the fittest and all that. In fact, much of Nazi ideology comes logically from a strict evolutionist standpoint, that is the view that only the strongest people should survive and resources should not be wasted on individuals that do not benefit the colony (handicapped, retarded, etc.) Only from religion (philosophies, whatever you want to call it) do we find a divine reason why every human life is equally valuable.
It all started at an anti-terrorism rally hosted on campus by San Francisco State University (SFSU) College Republicans last October. During the rally, College Republicans stomped on makeshift Hezbollah and Hamas flags, which, unbeknownst to them, bore the word "Allah" in Arabic script. In response to complaints filed by Muslim and non-Muslim students, the Associated Students Inc. (ASI) unanimously passed a resolution condemning College Republicans for "hateful religious intolerance" and for the "[pre-meditated stomping] of the flags knowing it would offend some people and possibly incite violence." SFSU is currently investigating College Republicans, and if found guilty of violating university conduct rules, College Republicans could lose official student group status and/or funding from the ASI.
--> Ironic, no? Considering that it appears that a favorite past-time in much of the Arab and Islamic world is marching on the Israeli flag depicting the star of David-an important symbol in Judaism. But I guess it's okay for them to step on our flags, but not the other way around...
So many absurd things in this post, but allow to go after what may be the most ironic and hilarious sentence contained within it:
"...because he didn't justify it as a hawk or an oil fiend, but because he believes in democracy the way only an atheist can"
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken
Have not laughed so hard over such silliness in such a long time. Thank you!
Hitchen's a pretty smart dude when he's not stone drunk.
Atheists and people that follow a religion or philosophy should stop following their emotions only and think about what we are all in search of-the truth. If atheists believe that the whole universe and life and everything came about due to random chance, fine, but many of them belittle others who believe that there is a purpose to creation, and therefore a creator. I don't think religion is the root of all evil, I think that human nature leads people to act in (what most would consider) evil ways. Jesus never preached that Jews should be blamed for his death, and he never preached that Christians should slaughter people in the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition, or force people to convert in the Americas. He preached tolerance and love, it's human nature that led to the violence perpetrated by people in His name, human nature dictating that stronger civilizations should subdue weaker ones. Religious values have contributed much to modern democratic and liberal ideals, as well as scientific advancement (yes, I would argue that). Much of Nazi and other totalitarian ideologies follow a strict evolutionist point of view in certain ways-weaker people (mentally or physically handicapped, etc.) should be obliterated so resources will not be wasted on them (survival of the fittest and all). Without a divine reason, I fail to see the logic that all people inherently have equal value.
"Stalin was educated in a religious seminary." - dveej
And religious education was so successful he became an atheist at 16.
"Hitler was a Catholic, and firmly and consistently supported by the Vatican." - dveej
Hitler was not a Catholic. He was raised as one, nothing more.
Catholicism requires adherence to certain basic tenets; mass murder of millions does not appear to be one of them.
Supported by the Catholic church?
This will be news to the world's historians. While WW2 was not the Catholic hierarchy's finest hour, to suggest they "supported" Hitler's actions in any way is a slur without any basis in history.
Christopher Hitchen's personal war with God is absurd. Those who choose to purpetrate evil under any guise, is evil. Plain and Simple. One who truly believes in God does not subscribe to doing evil. To do evil, and use religion as a shield to do evil, should be the real point people should make.
It is no different than one who holds up children, the poor, democracy or any other means to cause harm to others. "In the Name Of" to do evil, should be the focus of Mr. Hitchens.
More interesting would be an article regarding why does he want his "personal war" with God to become ours??
I am both a believer and a science teacher. Faith is not synonymous with the compulsion to act. My faith would not compel me to murder nor would it preclude my believing the fact of Darwinian evolution due to my ability to reason. Radical Islam or any fundamentalist faith that compels atrocities in the name of their god are no more than death cults masquerading as religions for the benefit of the leaders who incite such atrocities for personal gain. That does not make all religions suspect. But it may preclude treating all religions as legitimate.
I propose a theocratic Occam's Razor: If your religion compels you to kill, or deny the basic fundamental right to life or liberty to, say, women or infants, it is a cult, and not divine nor legitimate.
If athiests want a "religion" of their own, I suggest the following four documents: The U.S. Constitution (with the amendments as extant), the original U.N. Charter (1945), On the Origin of Species, and, as a warning to not invest a state with too much power, Orwell's 1984.
I would highly recommend "God is Not Great." He very eloquently describes being disenchanted by early doses of magical thinking that his teachers tried to subtly brainwash him with. He was smart enough to say to himself, "Wait a minute here!"
Hitchens has a first class intellect....there is absolutely no doubt about that. He has the courage to face the illogical belief systems and argue against them point by point. Combine Carl Sagan and William F. Buckley, and what you get is Christopher Hitchens.
I stumbled on Mr. Hitchens Book "God is Not Great" on CD in the library. I have listened to it 5 times so far and certain sections dozens for times. It just makes sense!!!!! He says things that hit home for me. I am 47 years old and have been asking myself many of these questions my whole life. It makes no sense that “god” doesn’t hear the cry of over a million people to spare their lives. Yet we are suppose to believe that if we pray to god for a better job, new car, love interest, etc. god will answer our prayers or at the least listen. Throughout history, millions of people have been slaughtered. I don’t care about the reason, the point is that they were slaughtered and god did nothing!!!! I think it is funny, when something good happens it is because of “the grace of god” but if something bad happens ”Hey… we have free will” or “god has a plan”. Look at horrific events like the holocaust, Irish famine, black plague, wars, etc. Tell me where was the “caring god” when these things happened. There are so many religions and beliefs, why the mystery, make an appearance and poof all will know. There was a scene in the movie “The Santa Clause” where the Tim Allen character is talking to his son about Santa. His son doesn’t think Santa could deliver all the presents to all the kids in one night. Finally in frustration Tim Allen says “ sometimes you just have to believe”. He knows it isn’t true. The world tries to explain god with “well you just have to believe!”. When the plane landed on water in New York the papers read “Miracle” no……experienced pilot.
Be kind to people and do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
North Korea is not a vision of Christian heaven.
On the contrary, it is a society built by atheists who insist there is no God.
Whenever and wherever this happens, forced labor camps and famines follow.
We first need to recognize and acknowledge that atheists - collectively, historically, and characteristically - bear virtually no offspring, and then ask why.
1970, Yasser Arafat, "We shall never stop until we can go back home and Israel is destroyed, peace for us means Israel's destruction and nothing else"
3/31/77, interview with the Dutch newspaper,Amsterdam-based newspaper "Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw", March 31, 1977, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people. Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. - (So the concepts 'Palestine' and 'Palestinian nation' are just a set of ruses that the terrorists have foisted upon the world in order to forward their terrorist aims).
Yes, bad things happen to believers. God did not promise that we would have a perfect, happy life on earth. I believe we were promised that our "days would be short and full of troubles".
I too think Christopher Hitchens is a brilliant man. About his faith, I believe he "doth protest too much".
Speaking as a Catholic who admires the Catholic Church but left when they ditched the latin (I always thought it was uplifting), and cannot find anything better. I don't think that the church ever said you need them to know the difference between right and wrong, at least that's not what I was taught. The church is there to give you the strength to do what is right. We all know the difference in our own black little hearts from a very early age, don't we?
Speak for your own genitals.
Speak for your own genitals.
Also, if secular society wants to get serious about orthodoxy a stronger program than the US constitution will be required. I suggest Myology the science of how our nerves meet our muscles. Do kids better than a few school subjects I can think of.
I have come to realize why the secular left hates religion, it does not like the competition. If you are worshiping your god, you can't worship theirs, THE STATE.Like Nazis and Communist, both of these religions have a lot in common.Put your faith in God/Goverment,they say. Have faith, and all of your problems will be solved,they say.Listen to us we have the moral high ground.Lets get together and worship.Some go to Church, some go to an Obama rally.Whats the difference?
Hitchens is bright, yes. But he is more a publicist for a point of view than an original thinker.
Most of what he argues was hashed out (and seriously undermined if not refuted) in debates among Huxley, Chesterton, Belloc, et al. nearly a hundred years ago. Not to mention numerous books pointing out the flaws in his logic and that of Dawkins. But the media won't fawn over the 'public intellectuals' who know better than to think they have the last word on all religions.
His points only sound convincing served up in verbal pyrotechnics to the philosophically and theologically illiterate American public, who cannot distinguish, say, between a religion and its abuse. (Atheist ideological death toll of the last century anyone? You'll be counting the tens of millions a while.) E.g., our Congress, and pervious ones, produce horrible results. So by his same logic that refutes democracy as an institution . . .
"The party of god" has the power among Palestinians but not Israelis. Hamas is in power in Gaza over half the Palestinian population but secularists are in power in Israel. This explains why there are annual gay parades in Tel Aviv and why women are in the Israeli army, and why there are honor killings in Gaza and a charter calling for the deaths of all Jews. Hitchens, by not coming down firmly on Israel's side, betrays himself as an atheist liberal working for progress.
dveej:
"Stalin was educated in a religious seminary.
Hitler was a Catholic, and firmly and consistently supported by the Vatican. "
Stalin left seminary and went on to oppress the church he was raised in.
Hitler was such a good Catholic that along with others he killed 2 million Poles, nearly all of whom were Catholic. Priests, nuns, and monks were also killed in the concentration camps. Or did you miss that bit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp#Clergy
I am perturbed by comments that speak of 'the abuse of religion' when 'bad things' are done in the name of a particular religion. The bible ('the best selling book in the world') is on the bookshelves of the great and good, the forgiving and the bigoted, the rich and the poor around the world. It contains unspeakable horrors and crimes allegedly condoned and carried out by God and his appointed people: genocide, persecution of women etc (alongside talking snakes and virgin births). Of course most 'sensible' and 'civilised' western Christians choice to explain away the culturally/psychologically difficult areas - 'ah, that is in the old not the new testemant', 'you have to understand the context im which that was written' - whilst keeping that which they (or more usually their pastor) thinks are the 'important' texts. However these more 'difficult' parts of the holy book exist, is it a surprise that some actually take them seriously and want to act on them in the belief they are doing god's work - after all it is a matter of eternal life with Kim Il Sung..sorry Jesus Christ.. or eternal damnation in the (literal) fires of hell? I'm sure the same arguments can be made for those who have been told that other holy books are the word of god.
I agree with those who criticize the argument that 'Hitler was a Catholic' etc. I had read quite a lot about Hitler, the third reich etc before I became a Christian then an atheist and it had never occurred to me that Hitler was a Catholic! This is a redundant argument for atheists. Ideologies do not have to be overtly religious to be wrong (selectively applied, used for personal gain, used as a vehicle for power). Conversely those who use Stalin and Hitler as a stick to beat atheists are wrong to do so: there is nothing about atheism that means I will attempt to be a national socialist or Stalinist dictator; the disciplines of history, politics, economics, sociology and psychology may be much better tools to use.
I'm not much interested in whether Stalin was rotten because he was a godless atheist or because he was an ex-Catholic. What's interesting is that he's reemerging as a kind of saint in contemporary Russia. Here's to assassinations, erasures, genocide and gulags in the name of St. Stalin.
First, why don't our religious
establishment types -I mean the
high-profile and respected ones
-ever travel to the actual scenes
of religious meltdowns -i.e. Iraq
-Jonestown -Waco -you name it.
Second, why is Hitchens -and
virtually everyone else baulking
at calling the awesome smoke
screen, denial and cover-up
by our entire western media
of the gargantuan genocidal legacy
of the Red Chinese?
$$$trange ---don't you think?
"Can you think of an atheistic government (like communist China, North Vietnam, NOrth Korea, and the Soviet Union) which did not kill millions of innocent people?"
It depends on what you mean by "atheistic goverment". I guess quite a few European countries have goverments in which most members are atheist. The totaliarian regimes you mention had atheism as a sort of state religion. The ideal of liberal atheists like Hitchens is a secular state, not atheism as a state ideology. USA is not so secular as Europe. American president has to be a christian, while in most European countries people just don´t care about religious convictions of their politicians.
Ridiculous!
So many of these comments are so obtuse, and entirely irrational.
The Hitler/Stalin argument has been overused so much I rarely am able to respond to such an idiotic claim that these evil individuals actually perpetrated their atrocities in the name of "atheism."
Atheism has no ideology -- simply put its not being a Theist! Atheism wouldn't exist without Theism, get it?
Then, the point several individuals made by claiming that its not religion thats "bad" but the people who "taint" it by changing what these religions "truly" stand for.
In reality, many religions if practiced by the book will be exactly like those fundies you claim ruin these religions. I hate it when the religious zealots claim that their old testament isnt relevant anymore because of the new testament. I beg to differ; its not okay to pillage, plunder, murder, rape, enslave, destroy, like a godamned genocidal maniac, regardless whether you're a god, or something so irrelevant...say a human being. An innocent man cannot be murdered (jesus-if he existed) and absolve you of your responsibilities/actions. I shouldn't even have to explain why this is so disgustingly perverse and horrible.
Then there are those who claim that they simply cannot see any purpose driven life or even know how to act morally without the divine. Again, what the hell is wrong with you. You can't find your own purpose in life at all? You need to look up to some fairy-tale in order to find meaning? We all die-get over it. You're no more special than anyone else out there-you're not going to heaven or hell, so deal with it.
Now you can't or probably won't act morally without divine authority? Wow, so beyond that edge you're likely to murder, pillage, rape, destroy, etc because thats the only thing stopping you? (kinda reminds me of your God). If you believe this, you're one immoral sociopath.
You may easily find out that any scripture will show that our morality is more than likely evolved rather than set in stone by some divine being by simply reading the holy scripture and separating what you agree and disagree with. Most people obviously don't believe in stoning children to death because they're insubordinate. There you go, if you've already done this then you used your innate morality.
Also, several made the point that its not really religion that is evil, but the individual acting evil--therefore making religion look bad. What a bullshit way of avoiding the accusations all-together. Religion is what causes the normally well behaved individuals to perpetrate evil acts. I don't deny that atheists can act evil as well. We're an imperfect species still evolving. One day I hope we leave these childish beliefs behind.
"God did not promise a perfect, happy life" -- There you go, one small example of how religious people can allow evil to prosper. At least this shows that we don't necessarily have to make things better because, after all, God made it happen that way. Your suffering must have a greater purpose, so why make things better?
I hate religion because it attacks us from every direction. One of the reasons, like Hitchens explained, attacks so deeply that it claims we cant act morally without divine guidance. Then religion and its sheep attack us continuously (if not by suicide bombing) by attacking our freedoms: abortion, stem cell research, science of all sorts (particularly evolution), gay rights, drug laws, and so on.
I'm rambling... I'll end it simply, where one paragraph in, "God is not GREAT: How religion poisons everything" ended by saying..,"thus religion poisons everything."
Hitchens is a hero to the thinker.
Homework assignment time, CH:
Write a short play set in today's world.
These are the characters you must use:
Cestius
Nero
Vespasian
Titus
Must also use a sock puppet as Azazel, the goat god.
Due next week or before the Nuclear Holocaust.
Neatness counts.
CW
I believe that Hitchens is one of the great writers of our day.
However, the arguments that Hitch, Dawkins and the crew make against God are tired. Hundreds of years old, and have been effectively refuted. If these guys would use some of there intellectual capacity to actually study the subject they would see that is a fact.
Barry
San Antonio TX
Anonymous at 2:55 AM writes:
Hitler was not a Catholic. He was raised as one, nothing more.
Supported by the Catholic church?
This will be news to the world's historians. While WW2 was not the Catholic hierarchy's finest hour, to suggest they "supported" Hitler's actions in any way is a slur without any basis in history.
END QUOTE.
Sir, you need to get YOUR history straight. "Not the church's finest hour" is the understatement of a lifetime. The sad truth is Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches. Honest historians concur on this. Hitler invoked his Christian faith (in an irrational, un-Christian way, most would agree) to support his hatred of Jews. If you don't believe me, believe it from the Fuhrer himself, volume 1 chapter 6 Mein Kampf: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." More Hitler volume 1 chapter 6: "Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."
At the very least we should learn from history and not blindly deny it. Hitchens is right. Beware ANYONE who invokes the almighty to support their cause.
Something to add...
Several of you, including one of the last comments posted complain that Hitchens is using the same old anti religion arguments that have been used for hundreds of years and apparently you claim they were "effectively refuted."
What I want to know is HOW were they refuted? AND specifically which ones were refuted?
Its these vague statements that make me wonder whether these individuals even know which arguments they themselves are talking about and whether they know Christopher Hitchens at all and have seen him speak, read some of his works or anything from an Atheist's perspective.
The only reason these same arguments still exist is because they are the best arguments, and because they're still fighting the same exact material thrown at them by the religious.
Lastly and off the subject a bit - look up the main news articles about "new" abuse within the catholic church in Time.com (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1882176,00.html).
Even though this has been on going, this shows how the religious just allow these kinds of things to occur without much improvement. Religion is the only thing that can absolve your of responsibilities - pathetic.
i heard hitler only had one nut. But he still pulled musolini's weeney, and thats why it didn't work. its not random nor chance...its
its like a colony of ant/hippie just grooving out until hotel crematorium comes and old hitch stops his goddamned linguistic antler bashing..ok, mr. genius you win.
Robert,
Thanks for pointing that out, even though its been shown to every religious person out there thousands of times. (although its possible many still do not know).
I think it falls on deaf ears though because, at least in my experiences, the religious I talk to simply respond by saying he wasn't "really" religious, or almost entirely ignore the argument, and switch the subject.
I really don't know what else you can say. Unfortunately often times religion is a conversation stopper - you just hit a brick wall once you criticize their beliefs.
Silly, wrong, mistaken, atheism, religion, Hitchens, Stalin - friends and lovers, I will take this opportunity to state the plain fact that John Lennon alluded to: Man created god. There are no invisible hands at work. Right now, we have another chance to face reality.
I (protestant) actually like Hitchens but cannot accept his religious scepticism. On his atheistic view we are just molecular machinery. Then we have no free will. Then we have no logical basis for ethics (which requires freedom to choose good over bad) or reason (which requires freedom to choose truth over error).
To be fair and calm both sides down, it's true that you can't associate Stalin, Hitler, and atheism so tightly, but I think this angle is often used because there are quite a few out there who start in on religion along the similar track - "look at all religion has done for us - crusades, inquisition, burnings, etc".
This is what drums up the Atheism and genocide connection - it's a defense using the flawed logic of the attack - body for body, the death count is higher when the state suppressed religion. BUT! It doesn't end there - both of these are flawed attacks.
First, all these "atheistic" genocides have occurred in the modern age, where industrial efficiencies (mobility, primarily) have been at the state's disposal. One cannot say that the worst theocracies would have eschewed these efficiencies if they were made availabe, thereby balancing the genocidal tally out. Count ourselves lucky that today's angry theocracies still live in technical dark ages.
Second, let's get back to the point that the common element between all totalitarian regimes and manipulated world views is human nature. Religion (ahem, like "Hope") is a great tool to steer cattle. In fact, let's just say "belief without objectivity and questioning" rather than religion or hope.
Because religion is such an efficient tool, it gets a lot of heat for how it's abused - Fair criticism. But I fear that if you did the impossible and made religion "disappear" there would just be other beliefs to take it's place. All you need is a small group of intolerant people who can justify their violence, and viola!
So I think it would serve Hitchens better (fan that I am) if the approach was less aimed at God and more general about our human tendency to get behind the movements of repression for things different and chaotic.
I am an athist, and I must say, Christopher Hitchens is one hundred percent right. Religion is forged from totalitarian ideologies that will destroy us in the end when we have religious fanatics get their hands on weapons of mass destruction. Lets face it, people use religion as a crutch to justify their existance, and uses god as an exuse to behave in such devious ways. What drives us to do such bad things is fear of the unknown, being the first species on the face of the earth that knows that we are going to die one day, and uses a mixure of religion, faith, god, and above all a lack of proof thereof. Amongst all of what religion has done to this great nation and nations around the world, it took a British immigrant who was bourn into religion to migrate over to the states and speak up for those who thaught they were alone in such a religious, totalitarian, and fanatical world that wants to bring on the illusion of the end of the world...For once I can sleep at night because one inspired many to act and stand up for their rights and our ever so valuable constitution. I for one am just as guilty as the religious fanatics because I was apathetic to what is happening, but at least I can stand up and take responsibility for my mistakes and accept my imperfections and realize that coexistence is very much so possible, as it is proven in nature as well in our society.
Brains or religion: that's the question
Brains or religion: that's the question
I see several of your commentators refer to Hitler and Stalin as examples for atheism gone wrong. I would refer to you the original document of the Reikskonkordat of 1933, a meeting of the minds as it were between the future Pius XII and Hitler's Reich. As for Stalin, the commentators are not arguing against Hitchen's arguments, so I assume they haven't read the work.
On Hitchen's defense of Iraq: I've listened to most of his debates on Iraq and understand his points and unfortunately agree that we would have had to go back at some time. I take issue with Hitchens because a man as versed as he is, should have had the forethought not to support George Bush's invasion based on his history of incompetence, his clearly ideological motivations, coupled with his administration's prior involvement in Iraq and obvious business interests. If I needed a heart transplant, I wouldn't allow a child to perform the operation with a company of organ traders standing ready next to him. Finally, I would ask Mr. Hitchens how intelligent is it to combat a roughly $500k operation by Al Qaeda with 4,000 plus soldiers lives, god knows how many innocent Iraqi lives and a trillion dollars plus in U.S. treasure. Not very, I would argue. The fact is we can't afford to do this every time some fundamentalist idiot gets a hair up his/her ass
As for lgbt issues I can't understand - even if you disagree with everything they stand for - how you cannot defend their due rights as human beings to have the same liberties as everyone else enjoys. Yet these same, mostly religious, people want everyone to defend their right to religious freedom. It's a two way street. I must defend your right to say and do anything you want - so long as you are not harming anyone - even if it offends every pore of my being, so as to secure my rights of the same. Why is this so difficult?
NoKo = Christianity. Perfect!
Another similarity: the gaping chasm between the promise and the reality. Dear Leader loves you, just not enough to keep you from starving to death.
You're criticizing Hitchens on Afghanistan? Give me a break, you wouldn't last 30 seconds in a debate with him on that subject. ROFL.
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